Anika Wells MP on Afternoon Briefing
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS
WEDNESDAY, 11 AUGUST 2021
SUBJECTS: Lockdowns; Covid response; vaccination; origins of Covid.
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Time now for my political panel this afternoon. Nationals Senator Matt Canavan and Labor MP Anika Wells join me. Welcome to both of you.
MATT CANAVAN, SENATOR FOR QUEENSLAND: Good afternoon.
ANIKA WELLS, MEMBER FOR LILLEY: Good afternoon.
KARVELAS: Let’s just start on the Covid situation. Matt Canavan, New South Wales has moved from chasing Covid zero or close to, to just higher vaccination rates. What do you make of this idea of opening up some areas like the Premier says when there are higher vaccination rates?
CANAVAN: Well look PK I've been saying for a couple of weeks that I think lockdowns should have ended yesterday. They were an appropriate policy response last year but with the vaccines we have available now, with our better knowledge, our preparedness of the health system, it’s unclear to me why we would impose such large costs on often the most poorest people in our society who don’t have any other choice but to work for a living and provide for their families. Incredibly cruel.
KARVELAS: But we know why. Because there would have been high death numbers if we’d opened up yesterday, like you say.
CANAVAN: Well and as I’ve said Patricia unfortunately there’s no path here that doesn’t end in that result. We can see clearly the mental health impacts. Lifeline are experiencing record calls.
KARVELAS: But actually, I’ve got to challenge you. There might be mental health costs. Absolutely, people are struggling, no one’s contesting that. But there hasn’t been a jump in suicide numbers for instance. So if you’re talking about comparing the two.
CANAVAN: Those figures are not out at this stage Patricia. Of course, you can’t always differentiate in aggregated data the differences of effect because obviously there may be reductions for other reasons with the lockdown. But there’s no doubt that individuals are harmed considerably by lockdowns and most of that impact goes to people on relatively low incomes. Office workers, professionals are generally not impacted by lockdowns. Indeed, as I’ve said you know I kind of like it. I can stay at home and not have to travel. But for other people it’s terrible. But those costs aren’t being considered. So I’d welcome anything that can move us to a more sophisticated response here. That tries to balance the different risks we’ve got. We cannot manage this coronavirus just looking at the virus itself. We have to balance people’s freedoms, people’s ability to work, people’s ability to provide for their families. People’s desire to see a dying relative. Like we’re denying people seeing a dying relative right now? In this country? In Australia? This lacks all compassion and humanity. And the sooner we drop these cruel policies the better for us all.
KARVELAS: Ok, pretty contentious view there. Anika, I know it’s your birthday. Happy birthday.
CANAVAN: Happy birthday
WELLS: Thank you, thank you.
KARVELAS: On a more serious note, you heard Matt Canavan there. It’s not a new view from him. New South Wales, well they don’t want to adopt Matt Canavan’s view but they do say they might lift some restrictions when there are higher vaccination rates. Is that something that you think is acceptable?
WELLS: Well I think the chink in the chain of logic from Senator Canavan’s argument just then. He said that this year, now we have the vaccine available, we should be able to be lifting lockdowns. The vaccine isn’t available for too many Australians. The vaccine isn’t available to young people. And we know its young people who are the ones who are working in the gig economy, who are the essential workers on the front line. They’re the ones currently are being infected in Sydney despite as many people as possible doing the right thing. So we can’t end the lockdowns without vaccine being available to everybody. And the vaccine isn’t available to everybody because this Prime Minister failed to procure enough. The fault, and the blame with these lockdowns has to lie with him.
KARVELAS: Ok. Matt Canavan, it is true to make it fair you need to provide the vaccine to everyone right?
CANAVAN: Well of course, this is just balancing these costs and risks. It’s really important to note here because the vaccine is available, especially to those vulnerable Australians, the fatality rate of the Delta outbreak is about 85 percent lower than the coronavirus outbreaks last year. You don’t hear that. You never hear that. In the media, on the news. Why not? That’s a big big change. It’s a huge change. And why is that the case? It’s not because, well it’s most likely not because Delta is any less deadly. It’s because, it’s because people, the most vulnerable people are vaccinated. So surely given that that circumstance has changed so considerably, the most important variable, the thing we are trying to avoid, the deaths. Why wouldn’t we slightly adjust our response. Because I’m not saying let it rip. I’m not saying have nothing. I’m saying we should have social distancing, we should restrict large events.
KARVELAS: But we know with Delta that it will rip. The science tells us with Delta it will rip.
CANAVAN: We should have testing and tracing. We should have testing and tracing. But we should, it’s just about finding the balance here Patricia.
KARVELAS: But it will rip. That’s the problem with the balance. There’s no option.
CANAVAN: We present this far too much in a black and white circumstance. And when you are dogmatic, and ideological about something almost certainly you’re going to miss something else that’s important. And so by pursuing zero Covid…
WELLS: I think that’s exactly right Senator Canavan. And I think that’s what you’re missing.
CANAVAN: …we’re missing other issues that are just as important.
KARVELAS: Anika what did you want to say?
WELLS: I think that’s really disrespectful to the families who’ve have lost people in Sydney because of Covid over the weekend. There’s news today that another gentleman in his mid-30s has just died of Delta. So there are fatalities happening. And there are fatalities happening in our young people because we’re not getting access to the vaccine. I think that is pretty black and white.
CANAVAN: But Anika in the last three years, well putting aside the last year but in the three years before Covid, around 150 young Australians died of the flu. Right? And there was no press conferences for that. We didn’t close everything. We could stop those deaths because we know how to do it now. We just close our international borders. Because we haven’t had the flu the last couple of years. You’re saying, you’re saying…
WELLS: But Senator Canavan that’s the same logic that George Christensen used in the House. And he was condemned for it by a vote of the House for using that same flu comparison. Are you sticking by that now?
CANAVAN: I missed your point. I’m sorry.
KARVELAS: Yeah that is an important point she makes. No I’ll help. Because it is a relevant point she makes. George Christensen was condemned by the House, the lower House. You’re in the upper House. And you’re saying not identical, but some similar things to him. Why is it that he got condemned but you don’t?
CANAVAN: Well I don’t think he should have been condemned. I think that’s the wrong approach to censor people’s views. That doesn’t help anything. We should have, we should debate different perspectives.
KARVELAS: Yeah sure but what happens when people’s views are not factual?
CANAVAN: Well rebut them. That’s, we live in a free country. Rebut them. And I have rebutted. I don’t agree with George on masks. I do think that they’re worth a shot. I don’t think he was right to say they are proven not to work. I don’t think that’s right. However, I do agree with him that the costs of lockdown are enormous. This is most likely the most costly policy we’ve ever implemented in peace time. Surely it deserves a debate. Surely it deserves to have some different perspectives. Because if you’re proposing the most costly policy in peace time and you can’t even defend it from a debate, maybe you need to think a bit about whether that policy’s the right one.
WELLS: But Senator nobody chose…
KARVELAS: Ok. Anika he says he shouldn’t have been rebuked. What do you think?
CANAVAN: Censored I said, censored I said.
WELLS: Well, I mean both Senator Canavan and the Prime Minister have said…
KARVELAS: Censored? Ok
WELLS: …have both said they will not stop George Christensen spreading misinformation because to do so would curtail free speech. But the Prime Minister said that yesterday, at the same day that he put forward legislation through the House, that penalises charities who criticise the government. Isn’t that exactly the same thing? It’s just a deeply hypocritical thing to do. This has real consequences. I mean George Christensen he has, he posts on average 50 times a week on Facebook. He has an engagement of between 80 and 100,000 people per week on Facebook. In Queensland, that’s more than the Prime Minister. That’s a huge influence. And as a result, well not as a direct result, but at the same time in the Mackay region they have the lowest vaccination rates in the country
CANAVAN: {scoffs}
WELLS: …for Covid at the moment. They do.
KARVELAS: Ok
CANAVAN: That’s ridiculous.
WELLS: These things have dangerous consequences. And that’s the facts.
KARVELAS: We can’t prove causality but it is an interesting…wait no we can’t prove it, but we can ask the question. That is concerning isn’t it if they’ve got the lowest rates of vaccination. That is concerning isn’t it that they’ve got the lowest case of vaccination. And don’t you want your local member in that area or the member of your party to be pushing for vaccinations?
CANAVAN: Well we also have, in George’s electorate, as including mine, we’ve got a relatively low vaccination rate around Central Queensland. We’re both very very low, well sorry young age, young population. So that explains a lot of it.
WELLS: Because they don’t have access to the vaccine!
CANAVAN: Well because we prioritise the older…
WELLS: So there are a couple of different factors that are the result of the Morrison Government.
CANAVAN: It’s been right to prioritise older people.
WELLS: Those are the two things that are to blame here.
KARVELAS: You’re talking over each other.
WELLS: Sorry sorry
CANAVAN: It’s been right to prioritise older people. And this idea that we’d shut someone up like Anika is suggesting.
WELLS: That the House passed.
CANAVAN: In my experience here, the more you censor a view, the more you play into the hands of those that are spreading conspiracy theories. You’ve got to be very careful here. Because as soon as you do that, the conspiracy theorist, what they’ll do, is that they’ll turn around and say, see we told you, they won’t even let us speak. And it will only make things worse.
WELLS: But at the end of the day.
CANAVAN: Be confident in your arguments and rebut them, rebut them.
KARVELAS: Ok. Anika what do you say to that argument. I’ve heard it many times before, that if you shut things down it allows it to fester. What’s your response to that?
WELLS: I just think at the end of the day, all of these mavericks are carrying on like they are some radical outsiders rising up against the system. When at the end of the day they are elected members of the national government. And they are failing to do their jobs.
KARVELAS: Are they failing to do their jobs? Or is he failing to do his job if he’s not pushing for more vaccinations for instance Matt Canavan?
CANAVAN: Well I think George is absolutely doing his job because he’s representing the views of people he represents. And that is our job in this place. Our job is to debate tough issues.
KARVELAS: Wait a minute. What do you mean, people’s views. I’m sure there’s a multitude of views on Covid. Some people probably...
CANAVAN: Well Anika just admitted, Anika just admitted that he’s got more…apparently…I don’t know I haven’t done the stats but according to Anika he’s got more reach than the Prime Minister.
WELLS: In Queensland? More influence than the Prime Minister on Facebook.
CANAVAN: There’s some people out there who support him. And so the issue here. Like take these vaccine passports issues. People are being completely suppressed if they come out against forcing someone to take a medical choice and I agree with George on this. I agree with the CFMEU, I agree with the unions. I wonder what Anika thinks about the CFMEU came out last night against forcing tradies to take a vaccination on construction sites in Sydney.
KARVELAS: So hang on a minute. Let me just get you on this. I’ve got a specific question. Because obviously it’s only in some industries that they’ll ultimately be forced. You don’t think anyone should be forced? Even in those high-risk industries?
CANAVAN: Let me, just to be clear. I put this very clearly on Facebook today. There are obviously going to be high risk industries like aged care or Covid ward etc where vaccinations would be required. But what I’m concerned about is making it something to participate in everyday life is going to divide our society so much. A big part, a bedrock of why we have a harmonious and largely united community is because we have the respect for people’s different opinions. And if we start trying to force our own opinions on medical procedures on others. Watch out. That is going to cause so much division. Even if it’s only a minority that’s against that.
KARVELAS: Ok, I’m interested in Anika’s view on this. Anika you heard there from Matt Canavan. He thinks maybe very few industries but beyond that, construction, you shouldn’t be forced to get vaccinated. What do you think?
WELLS: Well firstly I’d say that the idea of the vaccine passport wasn’t floated by our side of the House, it was floated by the Prime Minister in the first place. And I’m really worried about how we get through this and how we have a sophisticated, nuanced, evidence-based discussion around the path to 70 or 80 percent. Because I do a mobile office once or twice a week. I’ve got a handful of people coming every week now to talk about what the consequences will be if they are forced to get a vaccination in their workplace. I don’t see the Prime Minister leading on this. I don’t see the Prime Minister either backing the passports issue in or explaining why it wouldn’t work. I don’t see a debate on the floor of House about these meaningful things. You know we’ve got these really big issues this week, in the national parliament, like the IPCC report, which I suspect we won’t get to. Like how we get vaccination rates up. And today the Environment Minister took a Dorothy Dixer on recycling wheelie bins. I mean this is what the government is doing with its time. They’re not using their time to do meaningful work and help Australians through a pandemic. And the other point I’d make about what Senator Canavan was saying about, you know, the policy response and the spend is nobody came up with pandemic. You know no one had the idea that we should introduce a pandemic to Australia. It was forced on us. We’re responding.
CANAVAN: The Chinese Communist Party.
KARVELAS: Well
WELLS: Good Lord!
CANAVAN: {laughing}
KARVELAS: Well we don’t have the evidence that the Chinese Communist Party.
CANAVAN: Well we can blame them for it. They covered it up. They definitely covered it up. We know that.
WELLS: I’m out.
KARVELAS: We don’t have the evidence that the Chinese Communist Party started the pandemic.
CANAVAN: They covered it up. They covered it up.
KARVELAS: Matt Canavan we don’t have evidence to say that. In fact, that’s the whole point of why there’s inquiries. Because we don’t actually know still.
CANVAVAN: I think we’re 100 percent sure they covered it up. We know they covered it up.
WELLS: Who’s we?
CANAVAN: Everybody Anika! So are you denying that the Chinese Communist Party covered up Covid?
WELLS: No I’m just wondering who you speak for. Are you part of the government, or are you not?
CANAVAN: Well, I think every person with common sense can see that. And we shouldn’t forget that. We should not forget that the only reason four million people have died around the world is because the Chinese Communist Party were not up front with the World Health Organisation about the spread of an airborne virus. The covered it up for months at least, maybe longer. And that did not happen.
KARVELAS: Transparency from the Chinese government…transparency from the Chinese government has definitely been an issue. But we don’t actually know definitively at all the origins of Covid. That’s actually the point right? Matt Canavan. We don’t know.
CANAVAN: Well if I had to bet my house on it, I think
KARVELAS: Sure it’s a punt right? But that’s a punt, that’s not…
CANAVAN: It’s probably from the lab right? The lab is the most credible theory. No it’s not a hunch.
KARVELAS: Errr it’s kind of a hunch because you don’t have the evidence.
CANAVAN: It’s not a hunch, it’s not a hunch. There’s a lot of respected scientists out there who say it’s very hard to see how this came from anywhere else but manufactured in a lab. I mean the circumstantial evidence is huge.
KARVELAS: Ok. But you just said it, you just said it, the circumstantial evidence is huge.
CANAVAN: I mean, we had a lab, it was doing research on coronaviruses in fact, in Wuhan. Of course it is.
WELLS: Oh Senator.
KARVELAS: We don’t have a definitive answer on it by the way. I’d love to know by the way.
WELLS: Same. Same.
KARVELAS: I’m not contesting whether we’d like to know. But we just don’t know and I like to stick to facts here. Anika, it would be good to know right? There’s no doubt about it. Why did you take such strong issue with the way Matt Canavan just framed that?
WELLS: Well it’s like I said. I am accountable to my constituents. I have a mobile office once or twice a week. I will now have people coming to me asking me what the government’s going to do as a result of the posts from Senator Canavan and from George Christensen. These kinds of maverick actions have real world consequences. I mean…
CANAVAN: What specific post.
WELLS: Let me finish Senator. I’m really conscious of the fact that lots of people are watching you in lockdown this afternoon Patricia. And that mental health is a real issue in our community. And then we’ve got people running around catastrophising things that we need to sensible and mature about. And I don’t think it’s a positive contribution to the national debate.
KARVELAS: Ok
CANAVAN: I’m doing the exact opposite. I’m doing the exact opposite. The catastrophising is coming from the media and others saying we’re all going to die and we’ve all got to go into lockdown. I’m trying to provide…there’s hope, there’s hope. The vaccines are working. That provides us with hope and we need to now give hope to people that we are going to have a pathway out of this. And we’re not going to have to lockdown forever, we don’t need to do that.
KARVELAS: Ok. The one thing that the three of us can agree on is that vaccines work. Right? The three of us
WELLS: Amen
KARVELAS: And that people should get vaccinated.
WELLS: Please
KARVELAS: I’ve run out of time. See you later.
CANAVAN: Thank you.
WELLS: See you later.
KARVELAS: Nationals Senator Matt Canavan and Labor MP Anika Wells. We found one thing that the whole three of us definitely support and that is the science around vaccination.
ENDS
